I think Dedede gets shat on by every top tier except Rosalina & Luma and Wario.
06/02/2015 14:05:03
[/quote] - Captain Falcon is a tier too high, his recovery is bad and he doesn't have many approach options. He also gets combo'd like crazy.[/quote]
The captain is very good, yes his recovery is kinda bad, but he makes up for that by being heavy as fuck. Not having approach options and getting combo'd like crazy could also be used to describe fox. Captain falcon has great speed, movement, and footsies, he doesnt need an approach option, he just dances around you to create openings, similar to fox, plus falcons punish game is fucked. Also he can combo other characters like crazy too, very good character.
would you also not recommend coming second at the largest smash tourney in Australia to date? :)
solo fox is fine, his matchup against sheik is sheiks favor but not by too much, he does well against luigi, has trouble against yoshi, beats diddy, beats rosalina, goes about even with mario, not sure about pikachu, goes even with captain falcon.
Foxes worst matchups in A tier are sheik and ZSS and both of those are close to even, seriously fox does just fine.
06/02/2015 14:51:04
The captain is very good, yes his recovery is kinda bad, but he makes up for that by being heavy as fuck. Not having approach options and getting combo'd like crazy could also be used to describe fox. Captain falcon has great speed, movement, and footsies, he doesnt need an approach option, he just dances around you to create openings, similar to fox, plus falcons punish game is fucked. Also he can combo other characters like crazy too, very good character.
Jezmo said:
Fox loses to, not kidding, virtually every single A tier.
Would not recommend solo-maining Fox
would you also not recommend coming second at the largest smash tourney in Australia to date? :)
solo fox is fine, his matchup against sheik is sheiks favor but not by too much, he does well against luigi, has trouble against yoshi, beats diddy, beats rosalina, goes about even with mario, not sure about pikachu, goes even with captain falcon.
Foxes worst matchups in A tier are sheik and ZSS and both of those are close to even, seriously fox does just fine.
06/02/2015 14:51:04
"would you also not recommend coming second at the largest smash tourney in Australia to date? :) "
It's not an insult, friend. In fact, it's a compliment for me to say you've done very well with a character that has flaws.
Falcon, Pikachu, Mario, Ness, Sheik and Diddy all do extremely well against Fox in my experience, and most of the Fox players whose opinions I've read (Not that I've read all of them, by any means) would agree with that. He's a terrific character with a massively high skill ceiling, but he certainly has his problems and most Fox's (aside from Megafox, I think) have a secondary.
06/02/2015 15:39:37
It's not an insult, friend. In fact, it's a compliment for me to say you've done very well with a character that has flaws.
Falcon, Pikachu, Mario, Ness, Sheik and Diddy all do extremely well against Fox in my experience, and most of the Fox players whose opinions I've read (Not that I've read all of them, by any means) would agree with that. He's a terrific character with a massively high skill ceiling, but he certainly has his problems and most Fox's (aside from Megafox, I think) have a secondary.
06/02/2015 15:39:37
It would be sick if we could verse lvl 999 CPUs i.e. that are like perfect.
It would be mad for 2 v 1'ing ...or 7 v 1'ing
06/02/2015 16:55:59
It would be mad for 2 v 1'ing ...or 7 v 1'ing
06/02/2015 16:55:59
Revax said:
I haven't thought of WFT struggling in any match-ups except Villager being able to take away their ball
Game and watch
pikachu
kirby
Those 3 everything just wiffs and I just spam downtilt and it' a nightmare still
Sonic (although with customs this is a breeze)
Megaman and villager because of their zoning
Anyone with long disjointed hit boxes are kinda annoying too but are definitely beatable.
Mainly those 5 characters I mentioned are a really uphill battle
06/02/2015 22:02:51
Jezmo said:It's not an insult, friend. In fact, it's a compliment for me to say you've done very well with a character that has flaws.
I didnt take it as an insult, but I couldnt help having a little dig at it anyways :)
I forgot about ness, that matchup certainly makes fox work hard
talking of Americans though, Nakat likes to use fox against diddy.
And I think DEHF is solo fox too he's super good. Here are the top and high tiers according to ZeRo which he has based on his experience, insight, and tournament results for each character.
Top:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
High
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
06/04/2015 16:48:13
Disagree with Zero on Brawler, Olimar and Yoshi/Falcon placement personally. The former 2 should be lower and the latter 2 should be higher.
06/04/2015 19:41:37
06/04/2015 19:41:37
Legit question for Aero and Jezmo. Why do you think the Aus tier list is so different from the US's? (i know there isn't a confirmed one yet, but there is an understood consensus as to who goes where)
Like I like checking out what Zero and stuff think, just to know. And all top 5 all have insane control in the neutral, and that's what makes them good.
I agree yoshi and falcon should be higher. I'd be replacing sonic/miibrawler with yoshi, and putting falcon somewhere in top 10. Even custom mii brawler isn't that great, it has a great kill move/combo thing, but it only has the one.
I personally don't put the roster into tiers, but in one big weird 8 circle venn diagram, with things like speed,power recovery, versatility ect ect. Like falcon shits on most of the cast, until you put somebody tiny up against him, or someone with incredible recovery (sheik/pikachu) and there goes half his game.
I'm dumb tho and only really know stuff about the characters I play (lucina, falcon, dk) so my opinion is pretty redundant.
06/04/2015 21:19:13
Like I like checking out what Zero and stuff think, just to know. And all top 5 all have insane control in the neutral, and that's what makes them good.
I agree yoshi and falcon should be higher. I'd be replacing sonic/miibrawler with yoshi, and putting falcon somewhere in top 10. Even custom mii brawler isn't that great, it has a great kill move/combo thing, but it only has the one.
I personally don't put the roster into tiers, but in one big weird 8 circle venn diagram, with things like speed,power recovery, versatility ect ect. Like falcon shits on most of the cast, until you put somebody tiny up against him, or someone with incredible recovery (sheik/pikachu) and there goes half his game.
I'm dumb tho and only really know stuff about the characters I play (lucina, falcon, dk) so my opinion is pretty redundant.
06/04/2015 21:19:13
I thought brawler wasnt very good once, then I met Zxjesus
Zero thinks yoshi should be higher but said there is no tourney data to back that up.
The Australian tier list has to deal with the fact that there arent good players trying to optimize each character, having never played against any olimar who knows what they are doing, it would be very easy for me to say he sucks, but then if I met a top level player who's learnt why olimar is good and how to use those strengths, I could get rekt and then see those strengths for myself and change my mind on him.
It is important for us as players and as a scene to form our own opinions, but I think its also important for us to remember that we are a very small isolated scene as a whole, and much more ignorant in general of what characters are capable of than America is.
If you wanted a tier list in Australia that represented not how much potential each character has, but rather a tier list to represent how good each character is in our meta (so even if we know diddy is amazing, if there were no good diddys then he'd be super low on the tier list because diddy wouldnt be getting any placements or results and thus in Australia you wouldnt have to worry about diddy)
then you could make a tier list like that, but you'd almost have to make one for each state because of how isolated we are and how little we have interstate encounters. I think BAM was the first time any out of state tourney matches happened in smash 4 ever, and each state at BAM didnt have very good representation (Except VIC of course)
And if you did a tier list like that I'd probably refer to it as a character power rankings more than anything.
06/05/2015 05:49:52
Zero thinks yoshi should be higher but said there is no tourney data to back that up.
The Australian tier list has to deal with the fact that there arent good players trying to optimize each character, having never played against any olimar who knows what they are doing, it would be very easy for me to say he sucks, but then if I met a top level player who's learnt why olimar is good and how to use those strengths, I could get rekt and then see those strengths for myself and change my mind on him.
It is important for us as players and as a scene to form our own opinions, but I think its also important for us to remember that we are a very small isolated scene as a whole, and much more ignorant in general of what characters are capable of than America is.
If you wanted a tier list in Australia that represented not how much potential each character has, but rather a tier list to represent how good each character is in our meta (so even if we know diddy is amazing, if there were no good diddys then he'd be super low on the tier list because diddy wouldnt be getting any placements or results and thus in Australia you wouldnt have to worry about diddy)
then you could make a tier list like that, but you'd almost have to make one for each state because of how isolated we are and how little we have interstate encounters. I think BAM was the first time any out of state tourney matches happened in smash 4 ever, and each state at BAM didnt have very good representation (Except VIC of course)
And if you did a tier list like that I'd probably refer to it as a character power rankings more than anything.
06/05/2015 05:49:52
oopsies ignore
06/13/2015 00:06:40
06/13/2015 00:06:40
S - Ryu and our boy
A - The rest
Shouldnt even exist - Boozer
06/14/2015 15:01:10
A - The rest
Shouldnt even exist - Boozer
06/14/2015 15:01:10
Toki said:
S - Ryu and our boy
A - The rest
Shouldnt even exist - Boozer
LAWL
06/15/2015 00:29:50
A friendly reminder that this thread exists.
08/19/2015 06:08:25
08/19/2015 06:08:25
ADMIN said:
A friendly reminder that this thread exists.
thanks based admin What does aus think of sonic? Is he really that good?
08/19/2015 06:21:08
he certainly controls the speed of the match, which is a good thing to have. Decent recovery and the ability to up-B safely out of a lot of combos.
Top 15 fo sho
08/19/2015 06:23:50
Top 15 fo sho
08/19/2015 06:23:50
I think top 15 is a good estimate, but idkwhy people keep puttig him in top 5s. I can't see him being that good
08/19/2015 06:40:14
08/19/2015 06:40:14
Cap said:
I think top 15 is a good estimate, but idkwhy people keep puttig him in top 5s. I can't see him being that good
Agreed. I think it's more about perception than results. Throughout the majority of the match, a good Sonic player can outplay and frustrate other opponents. However, that tit-for-tat always requires the sonic player getting to around 150% before you can close out the stock. For sonic, 150% on your opponent is your 90-110% for other characters.
So, keep in mind, Sonic is one of the weaker fighters, and dealing all that damage takes lots of hits and lots of little victories in the neutral. For the person playing Sonic, this feels exhausting and sometimes frustrating. For the opponent, though, it feels like Sonic has gotten a lot of lucky or just unfair jabs in. The result of the match isn't the thing that player (sonic's opponent) focuses on, just that he feels OP. These are the people that give Sonic high ranks.
Now, last, to the viewer, it just looks like Sonic attacked and then the other player won/lost as normal. The mental battle isn't appreciated (and I'm not saying it should be, a "good-to-watch" match is a whole other discussion). It didn't seem like a big deal either way. These are the people that wonder why Sonic is highly-ranked.
My two cents as a (semi-decent) Sonic main.
08/19/2015 06:50:46
Sonic has a lot of unpunishable moves, and safe approaches. And few "bad" matchups. It's probably safer to put him in top 10. Maybe around 8th place. I can see how he would be ranked higher when he used to have a devastating back through.
The ability to kill off the top is a huge factor in smash 4, now that the ledge mechanic is what it is, and ledge hogging is no longer an options.
He's a solid character with a lot of safe approach options. But he lacks the insane punish game that the top 5 have. Safer to put him in top 10.
08/19/2015 07:41:27
The ability to kill off the top is a huge factor in smash 4, now that the ledge mechanic is what it is, and ledge hogging is no longer an options.
He's a solid character with a lot of safe approach options. But he lacks the insane punish game that the top 5 have. Safer to put him in top 10.
08/19/2015 07:41:27
No edgeswaps would change the tier list a fair bit
08/19/2015 07:47:52
08/19/2015 07:47:52
I always wondered what a tier list would be like if Sm4sh got PM'd
little mac would be so much cooler
08/19/2015 10:06:40
little mac would be so much cooler
08/19/2015 10:06:40
Abadango's tier list
bc Dank Hunt
08/19/2015 11:13:45
bc Dank Hunt
08/19/2015 11:13:45
Here's my tier list, and I think it's pretty accurate. Let me know what you think.
08/19/2015 11:20:44
08/19/2015 11:20:44
JLo said:
Here's my tier list, and I think it's pretty accurate. Let me know what you think.
You forgot Pac Man is also Sheik
08/19/2015 11:27:14
I think people need to rethink their understanding of "Bad" and "Good" matchups. These aren't exactly linked things. For instance Falcon is a good matchup for Sheik. He's heavy, tall and lacks the projectiles and spacing options to keep her at bay. He also has a linear and predictable recovery for her to get lower % kills with.
That being said, sheik isn't necessarily a "Bad" matchup for falcon. I think a bad matchup is when a lot of your usual tactics and moves get negated by the other character. For instance falcon vs pikachu, where pikachu is too short and light to be hit by the majority of falcon's moves, coupled with pikachu's relatively safe recovery. This is a situation where falcon is a good matchup for pikachu, and pikachu is bad matchup for falcon.
DK vs DK would be a fine matchup, heck even a good matchup (for both obviously) but Puff v Puff would be bad.
So although its possible for one character to have the upper hand, like luigi vs marth. Its very different to an almost unwinnable matchup (good for one and bad for the other) Like how I assume Ness v Rosa goes.
Am I making sense? I feel like I'm not making sense. I'm sorry.
08/21/2015 02:36:49
That being said, sheik isn't necessarily a "Bad" matchup for falcon. I think a bad matchup is when a lot of your usual tactics and moves get negated by the other character. For instance falcon vs pikachu, where pikachu is too short and light to be hit by the majority of falcon's moves, coupled with pikachu's relatively safe recovery. This is a situation where falcon is a good matchup for pikachu, and pikachu is bad matchup for falcon.
DK vs DK would be a fine matchup, heck even a good matchup (for both obviously) but Puff v Puff would be bad.
So although its possible for one character to have the upper hand, like luigi vs marth. Its very different to an almost unwinnable matchup (good for one and bad for the other) Like how I assume Ness v Rosa goes.
Am I making sense? I feel like I'm not making sense. I'm sorry.
08/21/2015 02:36:49
GIRL said:
I think people need to rethink their understanding of "Bad" and "Good" matchups. These aren't exactly linked things. For instance Falcon is a good matchup for Sheik. He's heavy, tall and lacks the projectiles and spacing options to keep her at bay. He also has a linear and predictable recovery for her to get lower % kills with.
That being said, sheik isn't necessarily a "Bad" matchup for falcon. I think a bad matchup is when a lot of your usual tactics and moves get negated by the other character. For instance falcon vs pikachu, where pikachu is too short and light to be hit by the majority of falcon's moves, coupled with pikachu's relatively safe recovery. This is a situation where falcon is a good matchup for pikachu, and pikachu is bad matchup for falcon.
DK vs DK would be a fine matchup, heck even a good matchup (for both obviously) but Puff v Puff would be bad.
So although its possible for one character to have the upper hand, like luigi vs marth. Its very different to an almost unwinnable matchup (good for one and bad for the other) Like how I assume Ness v Rosa goes.
Am I making sense? I feel like I'm not making sense. I'm sorry.
Made sense
08/21/2015 02:40:46